Eelco Schattorie, Childhood Trauma to Kerala Blasters

Imagine being a promising young Dutch footballer and having your World torn apart by the tragic death of your mother. Former Kerala Blasters and North East United coach Eelco Schattorie joins Shruthi and Joe to talk about his coaching journey and the current state of Indian football, as well as the problems with being bald.

Transcript

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Hello, I'm Joe Morrison and welcome to Chai Football. In the studio with me is the wonderfully opinionated journalist, especially about football, and that is Shruti Nair.  Each week, we bring you a no holds barred look at what's going on in the world of Indian football, along with regular invited guests from both the football landscape as well as famous fans of football from the subcontinent and beyond. 

This week on chai football.  This is a bit personal, but don't take it in the wrong way. My, my mother committed suicide. What I think is somehow this guy got in, did some hanky panky, made millions hanky panky. Yeah, like English people. We call them bloody britishers Here. bloody colonialists.  The moment we went for the training camp, after a week we had to leave the training camp because the hotel was not paid.

I will confront a player if something is not going well, I will sit down with him and honestly tell him this is the reason why you're not playing.  Welcome to Chai Tuesday and today it's not just Joe with me in the studio, we also have Alex. Ilko and Ilko, I'm not going to do an introduction for you because we would love to hear a lot about you from you.

So let's start there. Who is Ilko?  Bold. Let's start with that.  Uh, bold in both ways, as in bald hair, but also, um,  I'm always, yeah, pretty outspoken. That works for me. It works against me. Uh, you're Dutch. That's what I, he's filling in. I want to introduce myself. What are you going for? No, I'm Dutch. Yes.

Although, uh, this I'm from the south of Holland. Uh, these. People in general are a little bit more, don't say reserved, um, like, like, um,  the hospitality and, and family oriented. And if you go to the West Rotterdam, these people, they are way, way more straightforward.  Where's Verstappen from? Uh, actually he's very close from where I was born.

That's like, uh, almost neighbor, uh, village. Uh, like 10, 15 kilometers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Have you met him? No, never had that. You're so much younger in the local supermarket. No, I've been for 21 years in out of Holland. So, uh,  no, that is, uh, so, uh, moved from Holland  in 2003, if I'm correct, to Middle East here, Abu Dhabi, um, 2003.

Yeah. For work or? Yeah. Yeah. How old were you then?  33 something, I think, yeah, something like that. Did you have hair then? Sorry? Did you have hair then? No, but I was more handsome, that I have to admit.  So, uh, uh, within, uh,  That's where I met my wife here  and my wife is Egyptian and it's her mistake fault that I got stuck here,  of course, in a good way, in a bad way  for my coaching career,  very difficult to go back to, to, to, to Holland because I stay here from the other side, had good life, uh, had a lot of stints within the Middle East, in India, even to Africa.

And, uh, yeah, that's a little bit in a nutshell, Ilko, what he did. And who I am. Yeah, I just fire away. I play. Yes, I was a very talented player played, uh, as a right winger, uh, from the age  11 to 18. I played for, uh, Fortuna Sittard. They are playing now in the highest division, but in the last year of my career.

over the years. They go up and down.  Had a very, this is a bit personal, but don't take it in the wrong way. My mother committed suicide and that took me completely off track of my football career.  It took me three years to  get out of that. At the same time, I was doing like it's not a university, but like a sports Sports university in Holland.

You do internships for coaching, uh, still played semi professional in Belgium. Uh, but I, I,  I didn't have the, the full drive motivation to, to, to go on.  Sorry, just going back to your mother. Did you find  was an escape.  Like when you crossed that white line, did you use it as an escape during that time? No. Um, no, I was, I mean, that you have some sports people that have had that kind of trauma.

They say it's an escape, but no, I, I will, uh,  I don't have brothers or sisters.  Um, I loved football, but also very, was pretty protected as in, in, in the way I grew up.  My parents were very young, by the way. Uh, so for me mentally, when that happened, I, I couldn't cope with that. So of course, when you go play football, you train, uh, it's, you can escape and have like, uh, uh, yeah, get a little bit rid of the feeling, but overall that was, was just three.

I took me three years to somehow deal with that and get back on track. What age was that 18, 18 years. And that's basically how I rolled into coaching.  Because at that age, at 21, my career as to really become professional was over in, yeah, then 21, that's late. Uh, I was very talented. I had like, I was like a super skillful winger.

Um,  and that's how I rolled into coaching. And, um, yeah, that's how my career in football began.  Yeah, on the course of football. Now that you look back, do you have any regrets and go, you know what? I wish I'd tried to play for longer or I wish I'd got back in there or I wish I'd from the playing side. Do you have any regrets from the playing side?

Yeah, a hundred percent. Because  look, it's  anyone who didn't reach the highest level of football and who went in coaching. They always, you always hear them. Yeah, I had an injury.  But I.  And yeah, when I opened, I said, I'm bold, but I'm honest. I'm really honest. And I would not say that I have a lot of self reflection.

I really had good qualities. I mean, I was a really talented player. So  when you look back on that, yeah, you you feel frustrated because football is playing itself is the nicest thing what there is. Yes. And  there is regret. Yes. But at the same time,  it's not a regret that I  It was very hard to, to overturn that emotion or that feeling to, to, uh, to say, yeah, okay, your mother died.

So what I need to go play on.  It just overwhelmed me. I could not handle that. It was very, it's that simple. But after now, looking back, I wish somehow I found a way to, uh, to get out of that. Yes. So what was your ultimate ambition or goal back then when you were a child? What did you want to do as a football player? 

Um, It's funny that like last week or the week before I, sometimes you, you, uh, when you're on the internet, some, uh, things on YouTube pass by like videos. And one of the videos was about a player that I adored. Uh, and I didn't see a long time about it. His name is Gerald Fahenburg. He was after Johan Cruyff, one of the biggest talents ever in Holland.

And I remember  letter I had in my, my room, all the pitches he played for Ajax. He was like a big, big talent and yeah, that was the goal. I mean, professional becoming professional football player. And, uh, I substituted that with professional football being in coaching. So at least I came close to that, but the dream always was, uh, Play for full stadiums and see,  yeah, show your, uh, show your qualities.

See Holland get beaten in the final  of the European Championships or the World Cup. I saw that Aston Villa, right? 4 0. Is that what I saw? No? When? Ajax and Aston Villa. That's the game I saw. Ah, but this is not the Ajax anymore. Not the glory days of Dutch football. No, no, no. It's, it's, that's one of the things that, that amazes me, uh, a club like Ajax, who has so much culture and background, how in basically in one season they throw all away all their,  their stable pillars.

They had to, they had to, it's, it's a financial game now. Isn't it? No, this is this. Then are you talking about over a period of time? No. So the last year they, they, uh, normally a club like Ajax, uh, will appoint someone,  the coach and even technical people within who have an Ajax history.  This year, I don't know why.

And for the,  it's unbelievable. They appointed a technical director who never was with Ajax. He wasn't even never a coach had no real history. He got, uh, A full budget of 120 million euro where he brought in 12 new players who have zero affiliation with Ajax from second division etc and  After  I think six or seven, uh, rounds into the league,  uh, they were number 18 that never in the, in the history of Dutch football happened that Ajax was last in the league. 

Uh, and yeah, this guy, what I think is somehow this guy got in, did some hanky panky made millions.  Yeah. He made some millions out of all these transfer, uh, transfers. And eventually after four or five months, he got. kicked out. Now they're talking about all these 12 players they brought, they want to get rid of.

But by the way, let me stop you there. We need to specify the term hanky panky because in, in the UK hanky panky means, um, is, is a sexual term. Yes. Pondering. Exactly. Yes. It's fondling between a boy and a girl. That's what you call hanky panky. Is that what you meant? There are many contexts for hanky panky.

There's a hanky panky like this. Yes, so the Dutch hanky panky is not, just for the record, we're not stating that the former, he is the former, the former technical director was involved in fondling. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. But yeah, it's completely different. Commercial hanky panky then. Yeah, commercial, commercial.

Yeah, exactly. Or financial hanky panky, which is completely different. What's different about the. Coaching landscape in these places that you've mentioned, places like Africa, places like the Middle East, places like India in comparison to Europe. I dare to say with 100 percent certainty that  you can put me in circumstances that are, uh, where you don't, where you have lack of, Facilities, lack of qualities, uh, where I still will be able to perform, um, improve, uh, uh, a team.

Why you need to learn how to improvise. You need to deal with, with, with, with. When you learn how to deal with different cultures, uh, you become a more all around coach. This has nothing to do with the technical part of football. Um, that advantage. I will have over many coaches,  100%.  Having said that, uh, when you work in these Uh, countries in these areas, it is very difficult to go back.

They will look at your CV and say,  uh, he worked in India or he worked in, uh, while my, uh,  I would, I would challenge any coach. Yeah. I would challenge. I would check. I am not scared to say you will think that that's arrogance, but I will be able to work in the Premier League in England. So you're saying it's more of a feather on your hat that you worked in all of these places over Europe than it is a disadvantage then, yeah.

Say that again. I'm sorry. So it's more. More an advantage that you've got to work in all of these places than it is a disadvantage as other people might perceive it to be. Absolutely. Why? Because. And it's not like you work in clubs where nothing is arranged or something, but the culture, the way they look at football, um,  uh, the facilities, how they are arranged.

I mean, both of you, you lived here in the Middle East, you know exactly how things go slower, will take more time to get things organized. So all these things, they will make you a better football player. Uh, a coach, how to, I will give an example, um,  Middle East is very, even India, I think, but, but Middle East even more is a very family oriented.

Yeah. Okay. So any club I would take in these  areas, I would never say, I'm your head coach. The first thing I would say, I see me as your second father.  And why? Because that right away creates hate. What a father will always want to help you. So I try to remove the, the, the hierarchy of, of, of, of being a boss, being a, and if that is established, that doesn't mean that, that they can run away with me or that I don't have authority, but if they feel that you want to help them. 

that creates right away a better connection. And you, that doesn't mean you're going to be champion, but it create it. These are small things that help you better becoming a better coach. Rennie Moonstein, by the way, um, was assistant manager at Manchester United under Alex Ferguson, and then coached in India.

Um, and obviously as a Dutchman as well, um, now to come from that kind of environment where. You know, when Sir Alex says training starts at 9 a. m., it starts at 9 a. m. Boom, boom. Yeah, exactly. No hanky panky. No hanky panky. Do you think that is one of the reasons, and by the way, I'm not just focusing on him.

No, no, no. I'm saying it because he's a Dutchman. of all of the coaches that have gone to India and maybe failed, let's call it failed because they've only been there a very short space of time. Yes. It 100 percent that, that, that is a big part of it. Uh, although I think for  Möllersteen, because that is an example, he never was head coach before.

So he was always assistant. And if you become head coach, that's also another part of, uh, yeah, responsibility. You have to make the decisions. That's a whole different story, but for sure. Dealing with, with those cultural things, uh, on a, uh, on a level of the country, like the way you live, but also on, on, on, uh, give some examples of things over the years and, and yes, we're focusing on India , but it can, but it can be anywhere.

It can be Africa can be in the middle. Least it can be, can be. But give us some of the best examples of things that you've just gone like  without giving specific. examples, but I worked, I worked in two clubs where the president or the boss basically was, uh, uh, off the grid and by off the grid, I mean he was, uh, in jail.

Yeah, exactly.  I said, and then it becomes very difficult. I do believe in any, that doesn't have to be only with football.  Any organization, the shorter the lines are between decision makers at that group is small, the better chance you have a result. So if, as a head coach, you don't have like a direct line to in this, especially in these countries, to, to, uh, to, to the president or the guy who basically provides the money or is eventually  responsible, then it becomes difficult. 

So you, so you didn't have to do prison visits with the president  to get the sanctioning? No, no, no, that was, that was not necessary. Of buying a player? But, but, uh, I had Picking the, picking the phone off the wall. Hello.  No, I will, I will give you, I will give you one. So one example I, I put aside, but one that was the first time this happened is within this club, there was a struggle for who is going to be the boss. 

And. It's like you can compare it a little bit with Barcelona where the supporters basically decide who's going to be president of the club for this club was is the same and so there are people who The people who brought me  they were  There were some people on the other side of the aisle who not really supported that.

And this all happened while the president was not available. So who gets the decision, right? Who gets to select? It becomes a civil war, I guess, doesn't it? It's two factions that are You know, bottling over the control of the club. And it doesn't, that doesn't mean like they, they on purposely work against you or something, but it's just,  I, the, the, one of the most important thing in football and either that is in India or in Africa or in, in England is how do you make decisions together?

That means on the scouting, uh, on, uh, on the budgets, et cetera, you, you need to have a,  you can make scenarios together. where you make decisions and you support them together. And when that support  or that, that communication structure is not there, you will,  how this goes in practice is  I want this player. 

And you saying that as the coach, I say that as a coach  and, uh, president or technical director or any technical people in the club, they say, uh, not sure  I want the player. So we decide to get the player.  The moment this player even remotely little bit starts to Playing not so well, and that happens, will always happen.

I told you, I told you. Other way around works is exactly the same. If I, if, if the club, I've been in clubs where they brought players without, I just had to deal with it. I arrived a bit late. It wasn't your choice. No, it was not my choice. What you will do if the results are going to be difficult. Yeah, I told you, I don't want this player. 

Sounds like a lot of ego though, in all of this. No,  what, what is important and I'm.  I'm a super duper team player. What I mean is if we take a decision together, this, if let's say that I'm the coach, you're the technical director, you're the president  that 

I'm in jail. Come on.  It's fine. Just got a free out of jail card.  Technical director, president. All right. All right. All right.  So, but if you upfront decide together, how do we make decisions in certain scenarios?  You can do that because this is based on experience, how things happen in the past, how you choose players to come, how do you, uh,  bring in staff, people, etc.

There are so many areas that you can decide upfront how is our decision making, uh, uh, structure. If you do that, then there is never a discussion.  And the moment you take a decision, you take it together, you carry it together. And that carrying together, that is on many, many clubs, especially in this. area is always at the point when things are go a little bit sideways or not so good.

Then you get these these conflicts and you start protecting yourself and that goes from bad to worse. Right. Just pushing on this question again, right? I want to know what, according to you, was your biggest challenge during, you know, your time as a coach in all of these regions? Was it cultural? Was it financial?

Was it the quality of the facilities as we've discussed in the past? Was it the quality of the players? What was it? Very simple.  This also made me a better coach, but I not once not once and I came here  Had one team that where I had full control over the choices of players  And stuff. Not once most jobs.

Does any coach get that?  I mean, I would say it was the last of that. It's not about getting everything, but it's about that. You, uh, start a season.  Let's say the season starts in August or July that two or three months before it is clear he's going to be the coach. And then you start planning the everything, uh, that needs to be done.

And you start bringing in the players and the staff that you want  in all those years, that is already 21 years.  Ketela blasters was the only club where I basically start, where I knew three months before, uh, that I'm going to be the coach of Kerala Blasters. So you could plan? You could plan. Basically, we planned everything.

Although the Indian recruitment, I had no, that was already done. I had no, I could not choose one Indian player. The foreigner had some say. This, the, what is it, the training camp we planned. But now, The thing, thing comes the moment we went for the training camp after a week, we had to leave the training camp because Dubai was Dubai because the hotel was not paid.

So my whole training planning, whole training planning was, was, was, uh, so the six weeks of preparation fell into the water preseason and preseason is one of the most important things in football.  What happened? I had the whole season injuries. I did not play.  One, two games in a row with the same team. No excuses.

I don't, I don't mean it as an excuse, but that's the reality. But that's the only time in 21 years that I basically started or  upfront and still that went wrong through what I just gave an example.  All the other clubs I worked with almost always, I stepped in halfway.  Like you have to clean up  from other, other coaches or that you have to start cleaning up.

And that takes time. Yes, but then you need to get that time and I will also look a little bit in the mirror. I'm a pretty,  that, that I learned a little bit better to do. I'm a very straightforward person. That means if something is good, I will dress it, but when it's not good, I'm not too diplomatic. And that is something within this culture you need to learn that is learned over the years.

I learned to do that better. Right. So how much time do you spend in Kerala then?  A season, whole season. But what is that in months? Months.  Like 10 months. 10 months. Eight, eight to 10 months. Yeah. And how, how was it there when you, during the time was a beautiful, beautiful place? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That, I mean, everybody knows, uh, the state Carolina is, is, is amazing.

You can do, uh, so much wildlife, uh, sea of sightseeing and that was good. And the state itself, they love football. The coach, the stadium, they was fantastic. They're crazy about football, aren't they? Sorry? They're crazy. The blasters, the manja. I, I still have, I still have small videos of.  And, and the support is lining up and look, there's nothing nicer when people shout your name and they have a feeling that you, you did something.

Yeah, that was, was beautiful. It was very nice. But I do have a frustration with that. I had to leave that I couldn't finish the job. Uh, there.  Does it, does.  Does anyone get time now, as a coach, does anyone get time now? Is that the The current coach for Kella is third season. So it, it, it But that's a rarity though, isn't it?

It's a rarity in the Middle East. It's a rarity in Africa. It's a rarity in India. Why? Somehow they made a decision to bring in a technical director, a foreigner, uh, to maybe make those decisions on, on a technical level, uh, a little bit more secured or, uh, um How do you call it with, with, uh, not on an emotional level.

If you, if normally a technical director is there to be a bridge between the, the, the people who provide the money, the management, whatever, and the coach. And if that is some, someone who has the ability to, and have good football knowledge, but also knows how to direct these emotions. That is a good thing.

Yeah. You talk about emotions. I think that that because there's a lot of argument in football about that position, you know, director of football, technical director, whatever you call it, because 20 years ago, 30 years ago, you didn't have that position didn't exist. It's been created in the last couple of decades, but saying that.

There, the manager is always at some point because he's actually, uh, what would you call it? In the trenches. Yeah. He is going to get emotional. And the last thing you want is a manager taking his emotions to the owner or the sponsor or whoever owns the club. So sometimes that, so I can understand how coaches can be frustrated with a technical director, but at the same time, sometimes you need that buffer.

To go like, you know, because you've had a bad day, because you're furious, because your emotions are running hot, the last thing you want to do is walk into the office of the guy who's paying the money and go like, What the fuck is this shit? Sorry, just so I understand as well, what exactly is a technical director's role then?

Uh, questions.  , no one can answer that. In the world of football, it is basic. It's basically the long-term vision, controlling, keeping eye on the long-term vision. So not necessarily the everyday daily technical things on the field, but more thinking ahead. Like for instance, a coach will come and go.  That means, uh, I think what a good job for technical director also keep in mind is, okay, let's say that a certain good player, uh.

Key player of the team is already at a certain age thinking about, okay, we next season we need to have or in within two seasons, we need to have someone to replace him  and not that we wait two seasons, he retires or he goes away and then we don't have a proper replacement. You've been both. You've been a technical director and you've been a coach.

So, uh, choose. Absolutely. Coaching. Really? Yes. Uh, why? Uh, the experience that I had as a technical director is based on that. I felt and I can back it up that there was no real cooperation and I'm someone I like to cooperate. I really can sincerely say that that because of the knowledge that I have as a coach and over a long period of time, I know exactly what the coach needs or where I could help him. 

So if a coach then has a certain attitude of not wanting to work with a technical director, yeah, then you have a problem. But would you say you had more job security or have more job security as a technical director than you did as a coach? That in general, yes. I mean, it's what's the average, the average shelf life of a coach? 

I would say between three and five years. But what is a manager? You're talking about the technical director. No, no, no. Nine months on average. Yeah, it's it's it's that's insane. That is absolutely. I don't know exactly the average, but it is not not too long. That is it.  Why is that, though? Why is it so short?

Because of the insanity of of thinking that, uh,  look,  there is a way of looking at things. Um,  mathematically, scientifically, where you basically could say there's a black and white answer. There's a, you cannot argue over an equation. One plus one is two. There's no way to argue over that.  So is it too? Is it?

I'm not 100 percent sure.  Where's the calculator? Get it out. Bring it out. But the point is, football is seen  that the outcome of football is basically winning. There is no equation. There's not one coach in the whole world who has an equation to always win. Is that simple? That means if that equation is not there, that mean the variables are so, so big that if you don't win and that emotion takes over, uh, of, uh,  I will give you an example, and this is a true story.

A club in, I coached in Oman.  August  till March did not lose one game. I didn't lose one game,  uh, had a few draws. We reached the playoffs,  the final of the playoffs, really in the end, it went, it became more difficult, but we, we reached the finals of the playoff.  First, uh, game of the playoffs, I lost 1 0, second, oh sorry, we draw, uh, and the second game of the, the, the playoffs, uh, we lost.

So other team win. So a whole season, I lost one game.  I go home, we land in Moscow in the airport, and my wife pick me up, and the moment I step in the car, I get a call, yeah, sorry coach, we, we don't want to continue. Now you become, you become of your own success, that sounds weird, but The emotion of  not seeing what we did all the year where you built the game was boiled down only to that emotion of losing that game.

Oh, you can, you can say very unfair, doesn't it? Yeah, I still have frustrations about that. Because if you see  the same club in those years after became champion, had like had a good good run. So you did. And it's not like if I would have not then I was not there, it would not have been happened. But I had a huge, huge impact.

And. That whole, that process is boiled down to that, that, that one moment, that one game, you could say, yeah, but that's football. Yeah.  They say that you're not. a manager, a real manager, until you've been sacked.  And I, Sir Bobby Robson used to say that to me, um, and he used to talk to me as well about the emotions of when he was sacked the very first time, which I think was Fulham,  years and years back, at the very beginning of his career.

Um, do you remember the first call where you were sacked? And how did you feel when you got that call, that conversation? Oh, maybe it wasn't a call. Maybe it was actually someone brought you into the office. Do you, do you remember the emotions? Yeah, the very first time? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, because I'm guessing when you, when you're sacked, maybe it's more than once it becomes, yeah, whatever, you know, like just sold my contract out for the first time.

No, that, I'm,  I am so convinced about, My coaching quality that I am not scared to say that, uh, I will improve anything  I'm not talking about becoming champion because becoming champion simply depends on on the qualities that you have. That means you need to have a goal scorer. If you don't have a goal scorer, I don't care, you bring Moreno whatever, you will not become champion if you don't have a goal scorer and a true a guy in the goal who stops you at moment stops the goals.

If those two elements are not there, you will never be champion, guaranteed. I dunno which coach you're gonna bring.  So that is highly, so becoming champion is highly depending on the qualities, but a good coach takes out those qualities even more. But, um.  I made average team play better football than decent  good teams.

That means I have the attitude and the ability to make a team play football and dominate. Now, having said that, if you know that you have that quality or that feeling, no, I have that quality, and you get sacked,  and you did not get, you can't exactly pinpoint why things are not going a step further. That is painful.

that never, that never, uh, the first time. Yeah. The first time. Yeah. Talk us through the first time. First time I was at home with my wife. I just had a baby. Actually, my son was just born was not to, not to, to, uh, too long and late at night. Uh, It was, it was in Ramadan time, actually, and, uh, it was one o'clock at night, they, they called me and yeah, they said, yeah, sorry, coach, we don't want to continue.

Blah, blah. I don't, don't know the member of the whole, whole full story, but Did you fight? Sorry? Did you fight with them? No, no. That is something within the culture. I, I am pretty like this, if, if, uh, No, I, I,  I have a, I can have a very furious  So, but, but I will never hurt somebody or, or, uh, but you did that after, I'm sorry to interrupt you.

Did they ever do it face to face  anywhere in the world? I want to ask you personally, is it always on the phone? No, I, I.  It's not like I've been all the time sacked by the way. Let me know. Uh, let me, let me count the one, two,  like the three times that, that, that really got sacked. They, they were based on a telephone on the phone.

Yeah. It's probably like a safety thing as well. Right. Cause you never know.  See, that is that, that is something.  Maybe that's my Dutch  culture. I don't know, but I will not run away for, for that's the same thing with coaching. That's what I would. I would actually say that is what one of qualities that I have as a coach.

I will confront the player. If something is not going well, uh, I will sit down with him and honestly tell him this and this and this and this is the reason why you're not playing or this and this is the reason why I don't want to continue with you. In the long run.  I always notice that people rather have you tell them  they will respect that or will feel that you at least, even they will not like you anyway, but still there is a little bit more respect than playing some kind of a game or.

Totally agree. I don't. Put things on the carpet or. I don't mind yes. I love yes. Um, I don't mind no. I genuinely don't mind no. I hate maybe. Yeah, I hate the word maybe it's like if the answer is no, it's not fine. We'll move on, but the answer is yes. Great. Let's let's do it. But the answer maybe, or, you know, no, no, let's think about it.

Yeah, let's think. No, no, but that is also. The opposite side of that for me as a person, I like to have answers.  No, not quickly, but I like to have answers now. And that's one of the things I lack as a coach patience. I'm not very patient in certain things, but I know we can have an answer now. And do you think, let's just move the conversation back towards India.

Yeah. Um, cause that's what this is all about. Do you think that is the primary quality that, um, that they look for in foreigners? And foreign players, foreign coaches, um, you know, that kind of being able to deal with the environment is, is probably the way I would put it. I think Indian people are probably pretty patient people in, in, in, look, any decision that I, there will be.

I am, maybe. No, if, if,  if I, if I would ask you like in, in, in overall Indian culture, forget about football,  do you feel that things are decided quickly or everything takes time? Oh no, it takes time. Yeah. Yeah. And do you feel that Indian people, because in Middle East it's the same, but do you feel that Indian people are. 

Pretty good either whatever happens inside them. I don't know but pretty good in okay or except an hour wait. Yeah I think it's patience. Yeah, it's more cultural, right? Like because and I don't mean that I don't want to downgrade it as something bad What I mean is I I think overall Indian people are pretty Pretty patient.

Yeah. It's also deep rooted because we used to all of these government facilities where you have to accept the answer and wait and wait and wait. So, and they will do so. Yeah. And we just have to. So I think, yeah, it's, it's, it's not just cultural, it's also institutional maybe in some ways. Yeah. So,  uh, if as a coach you have that ability to be a bit more patient, that is absolutely a plus. 

That's for me, a negative. I'm, I'm not, I'm not,  I learned to be more patient, but it's just making me itchy. If I know that certain things can be decided now or we, or we can give an answer now, or when I know they hold off the answer, then that is difficult for me. So,  So there's a, there's a great story doing the rounds at the moment, and it's about the GPS vests of the Indian national team.

Okay. They, uh, when they went to the Asian games, the GPS vests, which are vests that measure heart rate, et cetera, et cetera, for those who don't know, um, and are used by many athletes, not just footballers, but they're predominantly used by football players, uh, they were lost in transit.  Either on the way to China, was it in China, the Asian Games?

Uh, or on the way back. So anyway, and that, and when was the Asian Games? Last summer at some point, September, I think it was, wasn't it? Somewhere around there. So anyway, since then the men's senior team has not had any GPS vests. So. The reason I'm telling this story is because there are so many anecdotes that are like this whereby everything is just, you know, you were saying about patients and talking about, well, you know, that's the way it is.

We don't have GPS vests. And this comes back to, uh, Europeans in particular coaches in particular coming from Europe. I mean, some people would absolutely blow their lid at that because yes, It might not win you the game, but it is that 1 percent or it is that 5%.  You know, it's like turning up and not having any balls.

Yeah. It's sort of like, well, what do you do? And you have two choices. You either have to work something else out, or you're going to get angry about there being no balls for training tonight. So I wanted to ask you, um, have there been instances in training and nevermind Kerala, because you've, you've managed a few clubs in India, haven't you?

It's not just Kerala. Northeast United. Have there been, is there a story that you can tell us whereby you've gone like, Only here would that happen. Like you just, you just, you know, you could turn up and yeah. I don't want to make enemies.  No, I,  um,  yeah, look, I already, I already explained the, the, the, the one with, with Kerala where I have nothing but, uh,  positive, um, feedback on, on the management of Kerala, uh, but that example of, planning and you've been one week into the preseason and then suddenly that is get, get turned around because the bills were not paid for the hotel.

Yeah, that is that these are things they are basically unacceptable. You're still, you're still loved in the, by the fan bases of all of those clubs. They just remind everyone, the clubs that you've been to, uh, that you've worked at in India. I get still a lot of, of messages, uh, either through Instagram or, or Twitter.

Twitter or from Northeast United.  Northeast United was at that time, um, had the lowest budget.  We had a nice, good team,  but I was the first coach who qualified them for the first time to the to the to the playoffs. Yes,  and funny enough, Uh, yeah, also they didn't want to continue with me.  But that has reasons that comes back to, probably they will see that as my character.

What would you say was the difference, the fundamental cultural differences between North East United, which is, so Shruti, you're the best person to answer this. India is not one country, is it? No. It's a whole,  it's a collection of cultures. What would you say was the difference between those in the Northeast and their, their attitude and their nuances in comparison to?

Um, I would say that the, the Northeast  people, or I'm talking about the Northeast football players, um,  were physically a bit stronger.  They, they, there are a few of them that I remember. It's not like they are like huge, big, strong guys, but they're, they are somehow in their endurance, in their power had a little bit more, uh, to offer,  um,  a negative or a negative, a thing that was difficult. 

not always easy to communicate with them. Why they had their deck introverts. They're difficult to to to interact with them.  Keep things for themselves. While in Kerala, I had, uh, I just take example. Um, um, KP KP is his name, right? Yes, the striker, um, who were very outgoing. Many of the Kerala Kerala players that we had, they could have a conversation.

It's not like you cannot have that with Northeast, but they're more. To themselves. They were more, uh, both more, more would you say? Yes, sir. No, sir. That kind of attitude. No, I, as in with, with, uh, you could make a little bit more of a joke, a little bit more relaxed while with the. Northeast boys were very humble and, and, uh, uh, yeah, we're more, uh, how, what's the English word opt option who did in Dutch?

You said you like, they are a little bit more careful in approaching you. And I'm somebody  reserved. That's a good word. So I'm somebody I like to do. It's not like I intrude or all the time, but I like to talk with, with my players, like what's happening. Sometimes it can be serious, but,  uh, joke around, have some fun.

That is also part of it. That in my opinion, Character wise was the big difference. Football wise, both states have a lot of talent. That means, uh,  I think the Kerala players were a bit more skillful, like they were more technical and the Northeast, as I said, a little bit more physical. That you could see the, that had something about more power.

Right. So what's next for you Elko? So are you based in the UAE or do you have plans of traveling more? No, I, as I said, I live here for the last three years. My son is going to school here. We'll finish this year. We'll stay another year here. Are you working here now? No, at the moment, I basically resigned from my job in Saudi, not too long ago, I'm looking for a new, a new challenge and what I prefer to coach and what that's going to be, we will see.

Uh, it is hard. It's not difficult. It's not easy to, to, to, to find a good job. I'm also, I'm 52. That means I'm not old, but for coaching that goes towards the direction of, you know,  No, but I still have so much to offer and so much energy for, for coaching. But at the same time, I'm not going to take those steps that I used to make and take any, any, any adventure that I could get.

So, uh, so would you ever coach the national team? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So would, would, uh, I'm talking about the Indian national team,  um,  What do you see is the fundamental differences between coaching the national team and coaching a club team and say the ISL, for example? Yeah, that any coach will will say the same is you just have less time to to mold a team, to make decisions.

have the influence on the players. How do you feel about because Igor Stimac is not the first by the way? Um, Igor Stimac has said it. Uh, Steven Constantin has said it. I remember Bob Houghton way back when saying it about saying, look, we need this one month. How do you feel about that? Before Whether it's qualifiers or before Asian Cup or whatever.

Do you agree with them in the sense that for Indian players and the Indian national team, yes, you genuinely do need a good four week camp to get them into a position, or do you, or do you think it could be just the standard time that, that most countries have? Because Germany doesn't have a four week camp before their No, but they have through the year a full program and they play all in, in, uh, in highly, Uh, professional leagues with a high demands, so they have a, a baggage or a high base level luggage of, you say that luggage baggage that, that the basics are all there. 

Now, the best example, in my opinion, uh, to back up. What you're saying and what India would need is, uh, Korea. Uh, what was it? Um, Dutch coach had a Dick Advocat was a coach of Korea who took a certain Dick, Dick Advocat, Goose Hiddink, Goose Hiddink, he took them. And, uh, he took them internally for, I don't know, two, three months or what.

And they did that. This is in  when the World Cup was in, uh, South Korea. Yes. In 2002. Really, really, really well. Mm. It's logic. If you, if you have exams for your school, you will also need to have a month or two months like, like you need to do studying unless you cheat. Yeah. That unless you're a cheater.

Yeah. Yeah. Unless you stop pointing  . Oh, sorry, my arm. You didn't, yeah. You know, I don't, I was just stretching my arm. That all.  So, yeah, it's logic. If you have time to, um,  to get in somebody's head and you have time to work with them, because in the end,  what I, what I believe in is that.  If you can, that applies to everything.

People are habitual. Whatever you do, whatever job you have, there are certain patterns that you follow. With football it's the same. If you can implement a few  main patterns, or important patterns, that what I think are important in football, defensively, offensively, then it is like, same like when you hang a jacket on a, how do you say that in English?

A hanger. The hanger. That means it's, Stable hangs there. I see that same when players have that, then also their individual quality can shine more than you don't need to work too much on on on individual qualities.  On top of that, I think a coach, and that is a very interesting thing, needs to recognize players quality, what they and which position they will suit best for them. 

There I still see, see many coaches make mistakes, but that's purely my, my own, uh, uh, opinion. So you can have a certain very good quality, but use it in the completely wrong way. Right. So which, which club would, Oh, actually this could be a rapid fire as we wrap up. Yeah. I do also have questions, but I'll start now.

Which club would you like to, um, coach next Indian or otherwise?  That is tough. Hard to say, but I'm, I'm open for, for, uh, for any, are you talking about like wishlist? Globally? Yeah, that's like, okay. So, so it's the last job, the last club you can ever manage after this. It's over. So that would definitely something in Spain or in England.

That means like in the highest league, name the club. I'm a huge Barcelona fan.  Always have been. That means as a kid, there are two clubs that I support. That is Ajax in Holland and Barcelona. I never, I will never change. These are the two clubs that I support. So if I could have a chance to coach Barcelona, fantastic.

And in England, uh, that would be Man City or Liverpool. That is logic. And in India? India, uh, Goa, Kerala. I would like to, I would love to do two. Longest in, yeah.  get the  rechance, because I'm sure if I would have stayed a little bit longer, uh,  Maybe we would have a championship now.  You can say that. The one thing that is missing, um, in Indian football, in your opinion, the one thing.

Consistency in, uh,  the playing calendar is already a bit longer.  But still that, that, that has to be a way that, that, and benefits the players, but also the national team. That means if you have a full league of 10 months with at least  35 to 40 games, that would be because you can develop if there's no resistance.

If you have a very small amount of games, uh, and yeah, there are too many patches that you don't have to do anything. Yeah. How are you going to develop that? That is logic. That is one. Two, for the national team, uh, if Indian players could go abroad, will always benefit them. And also the other way around. I don't know if there are Indian players, overseas players that are really good in certain league, but To, yeah, use them for the national team.

Oh, like  PIOs? Are we discussing that again? No, but that is that  there's nothing to discuss. It's just simple logic.  I mean, every country does that and it's not,  I prefer that you create an infrastructure within India. And as I said,  You, you need to play a lot of games in order to develop, but that is not just on the top level, but below that you will need to Also, a pyramid starts at the base.

Mm-Hmm. . So the, the development of, of youth football, the develop youth is, is a big, big part of, if you really want to grow as a, as a country in football. Right. Favorite food you experienced in India? Kai. Oh, in India? Yeah.  . Um.  There I have to skip. It's not like I don't like Indian football of Indian food, but it's, um,  there is not one.

I like the bread, roti bread that I like. But if you ask me like the dishes, I can't remember. I'd, uh, anything with chicken would be good. Yeah. But, but, but this is a true story. Actually, uh,  we travel from, uh, I was coached with Northeast. We travel from.  Calcutta with the bus to Jamshedpur  and this was literally a trip.

This road, this road, this road was a terrible road and it was, it was  four or five hours drive. Terrible. It was terrible. And they, uh, brought in,  uh, uh, food from outside. in the bus. Now, normally, because also the team manager, they know for foreigners not to eat food from, from, from, from the street. Yes. But somehow, I don't know if it was from the street, but somehow it was food from outside the gut.

I took it and I have never ever, it took me four days. The worst case of diarrhea. I lost four or five kilos.  I'm not kidding. I'm not exaggerating. I stayed in, so when we came, came back,  I stayed for four days in, in bed. I law.  Yeah. They have this meme going around saying India is not for beginners, especially when it comes to food.

That definitely does apply. Street food. Anywhere, anywhere, any hotel, always good. But food that's from outside that they, the foreigners, they will not be able to take it. And I was, uh, I was an example of that. Vada Pav. Vada Pav. Vada Pav. Vada Pav, yeah. I love Vada Pav. Yeah. So Vada Pav, uh, reminds me of, um, have you ever heard the term chip butty?

Chip butty? Yes. So it's basically a, we, we'd have, it's from Newcastle. Don't try to Englishize, anglicize this. Anglicize? It's Vada Pav. Anglicize. It's Vada Pav. Vada Pav. It's, it's not whatever butty. It's Vada Pav. So it's like a chip butty. So it's like, um, fat chips, like potato fries. Uh, but the fat ones inside a bun with lots of butter.

Okay. Oh, it's like, it's, yeah, it's deep fried potato from Newcastle, chip buddy. We were brought up with chip buddies and that's the closest thing in India, vada pav. Yeah. You tried to take our butter chicken, chicken tikka masala. Now you want to take vada pav from us? No, it did not originate from Newcastle or wherever you say it.

Vada pav originated in Newcastle. No, it did not.  But butter chicken, I like it. Butter chicken. Yes, that's the answer. On that very positive note, I have to say thank you so much, Hilco, for joining us and sharing so many wonderful stories. It's been amazingly anecdotal. And that is what we love. We love the stories on Chai Tuesday.

And we will be back again next week. Maybe.  I'm just going to keep saying maybe now to wind you up.  Maybe, I don't know.  Chai Football was presented by me, Joe Morrison, alongside Shruti Nair.  The show was recorded at W4 Podcast Studios in Dubai. The producer was Ian Carless. The studio engineer and editor was Chiroy Damonte.

The executive producer was myself, Shruti Nair. Joe Morrison and Ian Carlos,  if you'd like to contact us, head over to our Chai football Instagram account and send us a dm or alternatively hit me up on Twitter at Joe footy. That is at JEF double OTY. We love hearing from you, and we will be every week picking out the best of your questions and comments. 

If you are based in Dubai and would like to record your own podcast or have a professional podcast team assist you in producing branded content for your business, then head over to www.wfourpodcaststudio.com  and get in touch with the team.